------- OF HISTORICAL INTEREST -------

In Discussion: Sun Myung Moon and Arthur Ford

Informal talk following a séance with the famous American medium

Miss Kim: ... Our leader Would like to say…since the spirit world is very complicated, unless you know the cause and the principle of the spirit world you cannot advance beyond a certain point. You only reach a certain point and can never progress from there.

Often you can be a victim of the spirits who are controlling you. Therefore it is absolutely necessary to know the cause and the principle behind all [the] phenomena.

Each spirit will come from one direction, and naturally sees things and perceives things from one direction, not from all directions, from four directions.

Therefore, when one spirit comes he will lead you into one direction and [when] another spirit comes he will lead you to another direction. Each time when the spirit changes, the direction will change. So it is very important and very necessary for you to know the center, or how can I say. to know the whole directions and come to right the center.

Walter Voelker: Well, Miss Kim, we have at times heard a spirit entity, who I think is very wonderful, from a very high plane. And I personally believe in this spirit entity as being good and wise.

Now I know that this is the one who is helping a doctor to find a cure for a disease. Now I am willing to give up all hope of anything for myself to help this other spirit, because I believe this is a good spirit.

Miss Kim: He says, those spirits who come to you are from many different ages, many different times.

Some maybe 3000 years old, some may be just 2000. Some may have lived 500 or 100 years ago.

Those spirits who lived in different times have different characteristics. They come to you naturally with different characteristics and with different missions and naturally lead you not to the ultimate goal but often for their own selfish purpose. But some yes, as Mr. Voelker said, are wise and good.

But the most important thing for us is to go through all the stages and become perfect and be able to control two worlds, the spiritual world and the physical world, knowing the principles behind the two worlds and the principles behind the spiritual phenomena.

We are created to be the lord in perfection. Why should we be under somebody else and guided by that spirit all the time? We can be beyond them, can go beyond them.

Why do those spirits come to the earth to contact us, not to the spirit world?

That is because their goal is the earth, not the spirit world. In other words, something important is going on on the earth; therefore their aim is to reach people on earth. Then, why should we on earth aim or create some thing in the spirit world... Therefore, there is one or ones on earth who are perfected and able to rule the spirit world and Physical world.

So we are created to become perfected on earth, therefore our goal must be achieved on earth. That is why spirits come back in spirit to earth to have contact with people to attain their perfection.

He [SMM] has had numerous spiritual experiences for forty years, fortyfive years. And he always discerned the purpose and aim of the spirits who came to him. Many spirits came to him and he always discerned for what purpose [briefly tape unclear.] If you don't know the purpose of Fletcher you can only be used by him and can be a victim of his use. He is asking whether you were not sick when you first had contact with Fletcher. [Seems the answer was no.] Did you have another experience before Fletcher came?

Arthur Ford: I tell about it in the book. It all came spontaneously, you see, and I didn't know what it was.

But Fletcher tells us that the reason he is doing this through me is because by doing this through me he is progressing and he won't have to reincarnate. In other words, he is putting enough good into the world to .... [Miss Kim translates]

Miss Kim: Then you don't believe in reincarnation?

Ford: I believe in it, but I don't think it's an absolute thing.

Miss Kim: Then you must know why he is progressing through you.

Ford: He says that by doing this he won't have to reincarnate. He can go on and progress, because there comes an end to karma. He is working on his karma, so...

Miss Kim: The problem is there. How can he progress through you, by using you?

Ford: He is helping people.

Miss Kim: Fletcher comes to you to help people through you in order to be benefited by the service. Is that clear?

He wanted to be benefited. There are spirits of many levels and you will have contact with them. We have to revolutionise, what do I say, in other words you must get rid of some spirits to advance yourself, to progress. Until you reach a certain point you must get rid of that spirit and go on. You should not be confined by one spirit. To advance further you must be able to get rid of the spirit. To do so you must know the law and principle behind. There is law and principle in the spirit world, of course you know.

You know, there are many groups and societies in the spirit world. In other words many religious groups in the spirit world. All the founders of great religious groups and advanced spirits, no matter how high they are they have to descend to earth and contact people in order to progress. So you must know on what level Fletcher is. Therefore, you must know the truth by which those spirits are operating or working. If the truth operates and rules them, then we must subjugate ourselves to the truth, not the spirit. Then the more important thing is we must subjugate ourselves or we must follow the one who brought the truth. If we are to follow the truth, then naturally we are to follow the one who brought the ... truth.

Ford: We don't worship the spirits, they are just people who are able to help us as teachers. In our particular culture, I like to think that I'm following the teachings of Christ as I understand them. And Fletcher is just another person who is able to help, that's all because being freed from the physical, he is able to see more clearly and he is able to contact others. I don't' think any of us who do this sort of thing really worship the spirits.

Miss Kim: [Yes, but] Unless you know the law and principle of the truth and are able to control, rule the spirit world, you cannot overcome this evil world.

Jesus came for that purpose, to make people perfect.

[SMM speaks, but at same time there is a brief muffled discussion in the back ground.

Walter Voelker (?) laughs and says "...said that Sun Moon is a very important man ...

so we should take our shoes off."]

Voelker: I'm asking for help on a question which is important to me. We have a spirit named Vera Calhoun who speaks to us. With her is a scientist. We are told by some spirits on the other side that she is from a very high place.

She wants, and this scientist wants, to help cure a very bad disease here and is telling us how to do it accurately. A physical disease. We now know already more than our universities. Now, it is probably true that these spirits do this for themselves, but they are doing to help us to cure cancer, see? Now, to me curing cancer is so important that I would rather do this and cure cancer than save my own soul.

Miss Kim: I see. [Translates to SMM]

Ford(?): You are saying, in other words, what does it profit a man if he were to gain the whole world yet lose his own soul.

Miss Kim: That should be applied to this sinful world of the Fall. In other words, in the fallen world, your life, your soul is more important than any material things and others. That doesn't mean, you see, what Jesus said on different occasions had different meanings ... do you understand?

Voelker: Depending on the occasion.

Miss Kim: Yes, depending on the circumstances.

Voelker: If I can save you from cancer, or save my soul by studying what God's will is, I have to make a choice. So I may say I would rather save people who are suffering and go to hell myself, or maybe come back again.

This is a real question.

Miss Kim: Supposing you have a school and a whole nation who are dying, or declining. Now, you have the power and the truth by which you can save either, which will you choose, the nation or a small school?

Voelker: I'd choose the first one.

Miss Kim: The purpose of man is not just to cure cancer, but to become the lord and ruler of the whole universe.

That is the purpose of your life. If you lose that, and just cure one or two individuals, what good? You see, that is needed even for the one who has cancer. Suppose he is cured of cancer and has no real purpose in his life, what good?

Voice: Well, the cure saves only the body, and the cure will come anyway whether through doctors, whether it is helped by a medium or not. But I understand that [were there] true godliness on earth, there would really be no disease.

Miss Kim: Yes, that's right. You know, he has been contacting and [unintelligible] many, many spirit people. And they all came with purpose, and I had my purpose to contact them, confront [consult?] them. They come to use me for their own purpose, but I have to pass over them, how do I say, step beyond them. Always they ask for something to be done for them. If I would follow and obey them and do what they want all my life, I would become a prey of their spirits and the end of my life would be miserable, physically and spiritually I would be very miserable. That is why the end of many mediums' lives is very tragic.

Therefore great religious leaders often discouraged this medium.... It is dangerous. In other words, he said, human beings can be greater than spirit people.

Because we are living at a spiritually more advanced age, we can advance far farther than they.

Voice: I understand that, but then of course, the process through time has been that sensitives have unfolded that past. Are we to be without them?

Miss Kim: They testify to the truth to a certain degree. Therefore it is good to use them for that purpose. But we have to find the ultimate truth by them or using them. But you should not remain where they are.

Ford(?): They are teachers, but not of the master, so to speak.

Voice: They are selected people, though.

Miss Kim: Still we have to go beyond them. Therefore we should not remain with them. In other words, we being children of God have to reach where God is. We should not stay in the middle of the way, middle of the road. To reach where God is, spirits must go through the earth.

Voice: I'm sure Dr. Ford realises that.

Voelker: But to make ourselves perfect, is it just between us and God, or mustn't we help our fellow man whether he [is in this world or spirits(?)] Certainly. So, do I try to save myself or do I try to help my neighbor?

Voice: ... Quakerism coming out, ...concentrate on the individual first.

Voelker: No, you... [brief unintelligible exchange probably between Voelker and Voice]

Miss Kim: He says he understood what Fletcher spoke through Dr. Ford, and he knows even behind, the things behind the message, why Fletcher has to speak that way.

Miss Kim: Yes.

Ford: Is that right?

We have to know why they teach that.

Ford: Ask Mr. Moon; the word angel means messenger. The way we look on it is, we don't depend on these people.

They are simply the messengers who bring God's answer to us. God uses them as messengers.

Miss Kim: Do you mean are they all angels, is that your question?

Ford: Well that is.... good spirits or good angels.

Is that right?

[As SMM is speaking, Ford seems to be asking Voelker if Miss Kim said something to SMM. Voelker replies that she probably did.]

Voice, possibly Ford: Bind them together.

And also many groups and societies in the spirit world will be united.

Voelker: What is this truth like? I mean, we speak of truth, but what is it? Is it guidance? Is it an explanation of how to solve our problems?

Miss Kim: [Her own words] That truth will be principles which explain all the things behind the phenomena.

Voelker: Yeah, but understanding isn't the whole thing. They must have desire.

Voelker: Is this by word or example?

Miss Kim: By word ...

Voelker: Yeah, by word, by speaking or by demonstration?

Miss Kim: [Her own response] Both.

Voelker: Let's hope so. [laughter]

[several speaking at once] ...

Ford: What he has said is wonderful....

Voelker: Well, what is this formula, [does it mean] _the Divine Principles? I read those nine books! Sometime you tell me, you come to my house. She comes to my house.

Voice: You have all the knowledge but not the understanding yet...

Miss Kim: When you obtain this truth, then you will become the lord of all creation, most victorious one, so happiness peace and freedom will be yours, then there is nothing for you to envy. If you once obtain this truth you are the most victorious one in the whole universe. In other words you are the child of God ruling the whole world, the lord of all creation. Well, he has suffered for the sake of this truth, but he has been only victorious. Now, do you live in this city?

Ford or Voice: We live in New Jersey, only about half-hour ride from here.

Miss Kim: Are you clergymen or students?

Voice: We are priests; ordained...

Miss Kim: He said you must find out the way for man to go, and the religion for man to have, and the right and view of this world a man should have. You should find those. Well, he [seemingly referring to one member] studied in a Lutheran seminary and I studied in a Methodist seminary and also the United Church of Canada. We are very happy [you came here.]

Ford(?): It was our pleasure to be here.

Ford(?): I think ...more than half in it now! [Laughter.]

[Ending with multiple conversations going on.]

Voelker: Very good, thank you very much.

[Transcribed from the recordings made thirty-five years ago by George Norton, an